1
00:00:12,470 --> 00:00:09,440
on this episode of skeptical in many

2
00:00:14,839 --> 00:00:12,480
ways philosophers are pointing out that

3
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:14,849
there's a conceptual error there and

4
00:00:22,179 --> 00:00:18,810
that has to do with confusing technology

5
00:00:25,730 --> 00:00:22,189
with science technology has been so

6
00:00:28,310 --> 00:00:25,740
successful in over the last two three

7
00:00:32,030 --> 00:00:28,320
hundred years that we become hypnotized

8
00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:32,040
by it in a way and we imagine that the

9
00:00:36,950 --> 00:00:34,320
world around us is like a great big

10
00:00:38,660 --> 00:00:36,960
clockwork of some sort and that

11
00:00:42,049 --> 00:00:38,670
everything follow is a kind of

12
00:00:45,380 --> 00:00:42,059
rationalistic materialistic logic but I

13
00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:45,390
think that occurs because we project the

14
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:47,910
success that we've had with technology

15
00:00:53,689 --> 00:00:50,730
onto all of nature and nature herself

16
00:00:55,930 --> 00:00:53,699
does not necessarily obey mechanistic

17
00:01:00,730 --> 00:00:55,940
principles all of the time

18
00:01:09,210 --> 00:01:00,740
stay with us for skeptical

19
00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:09,220
[Music]

20
00:01:12,999 --> 00:01:11,450
welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

21
00:01:15,219 --> 00:01:13,009
controversial science and spirituality

22
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:15,229
with leading researchers thinkers and

23
00:01:18,130 --> 00:01:16,130
their critics

24
00:01:21,999 --> 00:01:18,140
I'm your host Alex Karras and on this

25
00:01:24,550 --> 00:01:22,009
episode dr. Jeffery Mishlove joins me he

26
00:01:26,289 --> 00:01:24,560
was actually a guest like 10 years ago

27
00:01:28,779 --> 00:01:26,299
which we talked a little bit about on

28
00:01:30,490 --> 00:01:28,789
the show which is pretty amazing and if

29
00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:30,500
you don't know anything about him he's

30
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:32,930
really really an interesting guy he has

31
00:01:37,810 --> 00:01:35,450
kind of seen it all done it all when it

32
00:01:40,899 --> 00:01:37,820
comes to parapsychology and has been

33
00:01:43,870 --> 00:01:40,909
involved with parapsychology education

34
00:01:47,169 --> 00:01:43,880
and public communication about it for a

35
00:01:49,630 --> 00:01:47,179
long long time and his show thinking

36
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:49,640
aloud which was originally on PBS in his

37
00:01:55,779 --> 00:01:52,810
new show new thinking aloud are just

38
00:01:57,399 --> 00:01:55,789
mainstays for this kind of information

39
00:01:59,590 --> 00:01:57,409
but the other thing I want to talk to

40
00:02:02,440 --> 00:01:59,600
him about is this book that he wrote a

41
00:02:04,630 --> 00:02:02,450
long time ago called peak a man and it's

42
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:04,640
about his encounters with this guy Ted

43
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:05,810
Owens and we talked a little bit about

44
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:08,450
it in the interview so I don't have to

45
00:02:15,069 --> 00:02:11,530
repeat it but it is an absolutely

46
00:02:19,150 --> 00:02:15,079
amazing kind of paradigm shattering

47
00:02:22,210 --> 00:02:19,160
account of psychokinesis and psychic

48
00:02:24,300 --> 00:02:22,220
powers in a human being and I don't know

49
00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:24,310
how history has managed to kind of

50
00:02:30,460 --> 00:02:27,170
sidestep this case because it's really

51
00:02:32,770 --> 00:02:30,470
well documented in so many ways so

52
00:02:34,569 --> 00:02:32,780
that's an interesting angle to mix into

53
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:34,579
this old thing I mean here's this guy

54
00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:37,010
he's been in the parapsychology field

55
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:39,769
for 30 40 years and he's got this

56
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:42,530
amazing first-hand experience with this

57
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:44,450
guy who could direct Thunderbolts with

58
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:46,850
his finger and summon UFOs and make the

59
00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:49,730
weather change incredible so there's a

60
00:02:54,460 --> 00:02:51,650
lot there to kind of ponder and think

61
00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:54,470
about here's my interview with dr.

62
00:02:59,920 --> 00:02:57,530
Jeffrey Mishlove today we welcome dr.

63
00:03:02,559 --> 00:02:59,930
Jeffrey mish Luvdisc up to Co Jeff is

64
00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:02,569
the creator and host of new thinking

65
00:03:08,470 --> 00:03:05,510
allowed a very impressive YouTube

66
00:03:11,890 --> 00:03:08,480
interview show that tackles cutting-edge

67
00:03:15,190 --> 00:03:11,900
conscious related topics as well as some

68
00:03:17,980 --> 00:03:15,200
very deep spirituality which really

69
00:03:20,830 --> 00:03:17,990
makes it especially terrific

70
00:03:23,170 --> 00:03:20,840
he does it in a very intelligent way a

71
00:03:26,260 --> 00:03:23,180
very academic way but at the same time

72
00:03:28,270 --> 00:03:26,270
accessible at least to most of us so it

73
00:03:30,970 --> 00:03:28,280
dr. Mishlove is also the author of

74
00:03:34,770 --> 00:03:30,980
several books including the roots of

75
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:34,780
consciousness and the peak a man which

76
00:03:41,470 --> 00:03:37,250
even though it was published 17 years

77
00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:41,480
ago in 2000 it remains in my opinion one

78
00:03:46,930 --> 00:03:44,510
of the most important books about psy

79
00:03:49,810 --> 00:03:46,940
that really has ever been written and

80
00:03:52,180 --> 00:03:49,820
that's not hype I I hope we have a good

81
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:52,190
deal of time to talk about PK min it's

82
00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:54,650
so important and it's so mind-blowing in

83
00:03:59,530 --> 00:03:57,770
so many ways anyways it's been as I was

84
00:04:02,170 --> 00:03:59,540
just chatting one second ago to Jeff

85
00:04:04,390 --> 00:04:02,180
it's been 10 years since dr. Mishlove

86
00:04:06,970 --> 00:04:04,400
was on skeptic oh I can't believe it's

87
00:04:09,070 --> 00:04:06,980
that long but it is certainly great to

88
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:09,080
have him back Jeff welcome and thanks so

89
00:04:15,820 --> 00:04:10,970
much for joining me it's a pleasure to

90
00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:15,830
be with you again Alex so you know and

91
00:04:19,690 --> 00:04:17,330
this is something else I just match to

92
00:04:23,140 --> 00:04:19,700
you Monica I was digging into doing some

93
00:04:25,870 --> 00:04:23,150
research for this interview and I kept

94
00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:25,880
coming across all this stuff that you've

95
00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:27,290
done and I don't want to like make you

96
00:04:33,430 --> 00:04:29,570
sound old or anything but you've been

97
00:04:36,130 --> 00:04:33,440
doing so much of this great stuff for a

98
00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:36,140
long time and a lot of people will know

99
00:04:43,750 --> 00:04:39,710
and remember the original thinking aloud

100
00:04:45,610 --> 00:04:43,760
program that was quite caused quite a

101
00:04:46,870 --> 00:04:45,620
stir at the time was really really

102
00:04:49,810 --> 00:04:46,880
cutting edge out there for a lot of

103
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:49,820
people it was on PBS a lot a lot of

104
00:04:53,620 --> 00:04:51,410
people saw it and people you can still

105
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:53,630
go and see a lot of those clips on on

106
00:04:59,200 --> 00:04:56,210
YouTube and in other places on the net

107
00:05:01,540 --> 00:04:59,210
but then you know you were doing this

108
00:05:02,950 --> 00:05:01,550
kind of stuff you had this itch for

109
00:05:05,140 --> 00:05:02,960
broadcasting in this desire to

110
00:05:06,430 --> 00:05:05,150
communicate all the way back to your

111
00:05:08,890 --> 00:05:06,440
days at Berkeley didn't you I mean

112
00:05:12,370 --> 00:05:08,900
that's what I stumbled across well I

113
00:05:16,630 --> 00:05:12,380
think I was guided in in a way I started

114
00:05:21,430 --> 00:05:16,640
doing radio at KPFA FM in Berkeley back

115
00:05:23,860 --> 00:05:21,440
in 1972 and I was going through a crisis

116
00:05:26,650 --> 00:05:23,870
in my life at the time because I was a

117
00:05:29,590 --> 00:05:26,660
graduate student in criminology and I

118
00:05:30,860 --> 00:05:29,600
wanted to really switch over somehow to

119
00:05:33,050 --> 00:05:30,870
study higher

120
00:05:36,350 --> 00:05:33,060
consciousness and psychic functioning

121
00:05:39,650 --> 00:05:36,360
and I didn't know how to do it and after

122
00:05:43,730 --> 00:05:39,660
many many months of agonizing about it I

123
00:05:48,650 --> 00:05:43,740
was guided by a dream and it led me yeah

124
00:05:51,860 --> 00:05:48,660
to volunteer at KPFA yeah radio and

125
00:05:54,740 --> 00:05:51,870
within three weeks I had produced a

126
00:05:56,990 --> 00:05:54,750
radio show and they gave me a program

127
00:06:00,740 --> 00:05:57,000
called the mind's ear that was broadcast

128
00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:00,750
twice a week and I found myself like you

129
00:06:06,740 --> 00:06:02,490
sitting across the table with

130
00:06:09,050 --> 00:06:06,750
world-class experts and that's what gave

131
00:06:12,170 --> 00:06:09,060
me the confidence to set up an

132
00:06:15,950 --> 00:06:12,180
individual interdisciplinary doctoral

133
00:06:17,930 --> 00:06:15,960
major in parapsychology at Berkeley

134
00:06:20,930 --> 00:06:17,940
where I was already a graduate student

135
00:06:22,610 --> 00:06:20,940
and that's quite an amazing story in

136
00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:22,620
itself I mean you're the only person as

137
00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:25,050
has been reported over and over again

138
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:26,850
there's there's kind of different ways

139
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:28,410
to cut that you know in realize the

140
00:06:32,930 --> 00:06:30,090
slice that you're the only person who

141
00:06:34,370 --> 00:06:32,940
got a PhD in parapsychology Wow great

142
00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:34,380
and you're the only person got to be a

143
00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:37,140
TA in psychology your parapsychology oh

144
00:06:42,470 --> 00:06:38,910
my god you know what the heck is going

145
00:06:45,830 --> 00:06:42,480
on but the distinction is simply that my

146
00:06:48,830 --> 00:06:45,840
diploma actually says parapsychology

147
00:06:52,130 --> 00:06:48,840
right there certainly other people who

148
00:06:55,490 --> 00:06:52,140
got doctoral degrees in psychology or

149
00:06:58,400 --> 00:06:55,500
philosophy of course education who have

150
00:07:01,490 --> 00:06:58,410
done parapsychology dissertations of

151
00:07:04,490 --> 00:07:01,500
course but what what we're pointing out

152
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:04,500
is that you know certainly at that point

153
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:06,810
you couldn't have imagined that this

154
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:09,330
much time would go by and there would

155
00:07:12,980 --> 00:07:11,130
still be you know the only person

156
00:07:16,820 --> 00:07:12,990
hanging up that thing on the wall that

157
00:07:19,130 --> 00:07:16,830
says parapsychology on it it's just it

158
00:07:20,660 --> 00:07:19,140
speaks a lot to the field that we'll

159
00:07:22,970 --> 00:07:20,670
talk about later but I mean it's kind of

160
00:07:26,270 --> 00:07:22,980
sad really and really yeah yeah they

161
00:07:28,610 --> 00:07:26,280
just said so but let's switch gears for

162
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:28,620
a minute because so great you start out

163
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:30,450
with Berkeley but this does pop up again

164
00:07:36,830 --> 00:07:33,690
and again you are a communicator about

165
00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:36,840
this stuff and that seems to be always

166
00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:39,180
in you you know you've drift away from

167
00:07:44,150 --> 00:07:41,310
it a little bit and you're kind of

168
00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:44,160
forced because the way the act

169
00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:46,770
system looks on these topics you know it

170
00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:49,710
didn't exactly provide a real easy path

171
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:51,870
for you to go down and get a

172
00:07:55,790 --> 00:07:54,210
professorship or you know have that kind

173
00:07:58,220 --> 00:07:55,800
of life that just wasn't an opportunity

174
00:08:01,940 --> 00:07:58,230
for you but you kept coming back to this

175
00:08:03,140 --> 00:08:01,950
communication stuff oh just tell you

176
00:08:05,390 --> 00:08:03,150
know yeah I guess you hinted at that I

177
00:08:08,690 --> 00:08:05,400
mean it's always been in you I mean has

178
00:08:12,140 --> 00:08:08,700
it always been your vision well I can

179
00:08:15,470 --> 00:08:12,150
tell you this back in 1986

180
00:08:18,650 --> 00:08:15,480
I took a training program offered by Ted

181
00:08:23,230 --> 00:08:18,660
Owens the man about whom the book the PK

182
00:08:25,550 --> 00:08:23,240
Man was written and he was a master of

183
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:25,560
psychokinesis and he asked me what do

184
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:28,530
you want to do with this ability he was

185
00:08:35,420 --> 00:08:30,570
a guy who could conjure up hurricanes

186
00:08:39,020 --> 00:08:35,430
and make UFOs manifest and the wild

187
00:08:40,459 --> 00:08:39,030
shamanistic things of that sort and he I

188
00:08:43,089 --> 00:08:40,469
thought about it and I said what I

189
00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:43,099
really want to do is to become a

190
00:08:49,420 --> 00:08:46,110
communicator between the esoteric world

191
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:49,430
of psychic phenomena and the mainstream

192
00:08:55,130 --> 00:08:53,250
population and it was within a few

193
00:08:58,160 --> 00:08:55,140
months of taking that training that I

194
00:09:02,630 --> 00:08:58,170
launched the original thinking allowed

195
00:09:04,580 --> 00:09:02,640
television series and I've been at it

196
00:09:08,690 --> 00:09:04,590
there was a ten-year gap in there

197
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:08,700
somewhere but I I've been at it mostly

198
00:09:15,860 --> 00:09:11,970
yeah ever since then you know I read

199
00:09:17,270 --> 00:09:15,870
that anecdote that is so cool I mean

200
00:09:20,780 --> 00:09:17,280
because we're going to talk more about

201
00:09:23,180 --> 00:09:20,790
Ted Owens later but there it's it's one

202
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:23,190
it's cool to think about what could have

203
00:09:29,750 --> 00:09:27,210
been the otherworldly influence that

204
00:09:31,370 --> 00:09:29,760
drove that which week but then we can

205
00:09:34,730 --> 00:09:31,380
just kind of leave that aside and say

206
00:09:36,470 --> 00:09:34,740
you know someone goes and says Jeff in

207
00:09:38,930 --> 00:09:36,480
your heart of hearts you know what do

208
00:09:41,180 --> 00:09:38,940
you really want to help in doing and

209
00:09:43,190 --> 00:09:41,190
bring forth in your life and that's your

210
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:43,200
thing you know that's kind of cool isn't

211
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:46,290
it yeah yeah it's been a great life as

212
00:09:51,980 --> 00:09:48,450
far as I'm concerned there have been all

213
00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:51,990
kinds of obstacles thrown in my path but

214
00:09:56,340 --> 00:09:52,870
I wouldn't

215
00:09:58,320 --> 00:09:56,350
to change it at all okay so hey before

216
00:10:01,320 --> 00:09:58,330
we get too far off track let's talk a

217
00:10:03,390 --> 00:10:01,330
little bit about the new show new

218
00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:03,400
thinking allowed people find it on

219
00:10:06,210 --> 00:10:04,240
YouTube

220
00:10:08,220 --> 00:10:06,220
it looks great has super great

221
00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:08,230
production quality which you do a really

222
00:10:12,690 --> 00:10:11,050
nice job of it's not like a Skype thing

223
00:10:14,790 --> 00:10:12,700
nothing wrong with Skype we're talking

224
00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:14,800
Skype right now but it's more of a

225
00:10:19,230 --> 00:10:16,750
studio looking thing and you know great

226
00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:19,240
audio and all that stuff but to tell us

227
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:21,910
the new in the new thinking a lot

228
00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:23,410
because as you said there's that 10 year

229
00:10:31,079 --> 00:10:27,430
gap now you have a new show is there a

230
00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:31,089
new focus I oh no it's I it's great it's

231
00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:33,790
great stuff what's changed well and the

232
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:37,120
original thinking allowed series we

233
00:10:43,079 --> 00:10:39,730
covered philosophy psychology health

234
00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:43,089
science and spirituality now I'm

235
00:10:49,470 --> 00:10:46,990
focusing primarily on parapsychology

236
00:10:52,019 --> 00:10:49,480
specifically because as you pointed out

237
00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:52,029
earlier it's been nearly 40 years I'm

238
00:10:57,870 --> 00:10:54,790
the only person in the world ever to get

239
00:11:01,199 --> 00:10:57,880
receive an accredited doctoral Diploma

240
00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:01,209
in parapsychology and and that's a

241
00:11:07,290 --> 00:11:04,690
painful thing for me so my expectation

242
00:11:10,050 --> 00:11:07,300
is that eventually they're going to be

243
00:11:12,829 --> 00:11:10,060
many academic programs of this sort and

244
00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:12,839
that they're going to want to envision

245
00:11:18,620 --> 00:11:15,040
parapsychology the way that I do which

246
00:11:21,810 --> 00:11:18,630
is to include you know millennia of

247
00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:21,820
spiritual traditions and explorations of

248
00:11:29,579 --> 00:11:24,790
the psychic realm in the f no historical

249
00:11:32,130 --> 00:11:29,589
records of every culture and so my goal

250
00:11:36,570 --> 00:11:32,140
now with the new thinking aloud series

251
00:11:40,050 --> 00:11:36,580
is to create a an archive of the best

252
00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:40,060
material that I can find with the most

253
00:11:45,769 --> 00:11:43,200
valuable people and there are many great

254
00:11:49,290 --> 00:11:45,779
parapsychologists who are alive today

255
00:11:52,140 --> 00:11:49,300
and so that in the future when those

256
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:52,150
educational programs eventually are

257
00:11:57,269 --> 00:11:54,160
established they'll have this as a

258
00:11:59,880 --> 00:11:57,279
resource eternal optimist I gotta say

259
00:12:02,190 --> 00:11:59,890
eternal eternal optimist when it comes

260
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:02,200
the pharisee ology but the other thing I

261
00:12:06,990 --> 00:12:03,610
want to pick up on

262
00:12:10,250 --> 00:12:07,000
is this deep spirituality because it

263
00:12:14,190 --> 00:12:10,260
seemed to me that you were in a very

264
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:14,200
intelligent way but broadening to this

265
00:12:18,750 --> 00:12:17,290
new emerging spirituality but then I

266
00:12:20,759 --> 00:12:18,760
went back and looked at the original

267
00:12:23,819 --> 00:12:20,769
thinking aloud and that was always in

268
00:12:28,230 --> 00:12:23,829
the DNA of that show as well but do you

269
00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:28,240
have this spiritual interest in the way

270
00:12:33,870 --> 00:12:30,910
that you approach it the deep and

271
00:12:37,290 --> 00:12:33,880
broaden for you in the in the years or

272
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:37,300
is it still you see the same vision of

273
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:40,800
that well I guess I can say this my

274
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:44,320
philosophy is that the spiritual

275
00:12:50,639 --> 00:12:47,200
traditions of the world are now the

276
00:12:54,660 --> 00:12:50,649
birthright of every human being that

277
00:12:57,870 --> 00:12:54,670
it's no longer we're required that you

278
00:13:01,259 --> 00:12:57,880
have to accept the religion into which

279
00:13:03,449 --> 00:13:01,269
you were born because every religion

280
00:13:05,970 --> 00:13:03,459
every cultural tradition has some very

281
00:13:09,870 --> 00:13:05,980
unique insights into the nature of

282
00:13:14,069 --> 00:13:09,880
consciousness and we're we're all

283
00:13:15,689 --> 00:13:14,079
entitled to partake of all of that yeah

284
00:13:18,269 --> 00:13:15,699
yeah but what I like is you don't just

285
00:13:21,569 --> 00:13:18,279
explore it from that angle because that

286
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:21,579
sounds like kind of this on religious

287
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:24,970
equality kind of thing I mean you dig

288
00:13:29,310 --> 00:13:27,490
deep and try and bring science to it as

289
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:29,320
well I mean many your guests have done

290
00:13:33,449 --> 00:13:31,600
that right I think I just the name's

291
00:13:35,370 --> 00:13:33,459
going to escape me now but who's the the

292
00:13:37,410 --> 00:13:35,380
most recent guy you had on who was

293
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:37,420
talking about the after death

294
00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:40,930
communicate Bedi betty stafford betty

295
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:42,910
who's a professor of Religious Studies

296
00:13:49,199 --> 00:13:46,570
at the California State University and

297
00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:49,209
Bakersfield excellent and your interview

298
00:13:52,380 --> 00:13:50,980
was excellent and his information was

299
00:13:55,410 --> 00:13:52,390
excellent and here's a guy and I think

300
00:13:58,350 --> 00:13:55,420
this is to me the quintessential new

301
00:14:00,960 --> 00:13:58,360
thinking aloud he says look I don't have

302
00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:00,970
any strong religious connection to this

303
00:14:07,019 --> 00:14:04,360
I just have it as a matter of fact I see

304
00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:07,029
religion kind of in slightly less

305
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:09,040
favorable light based on my research I

306
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:12,010
just wanted to look at issues that

307
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:14,890
typically are included or exclusively

308
00:14:17,250 --> 00:14:17,050
the category of religion that is you

309
00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:17,260
know

310
00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:20,380
how do people encounter God in the

311
00:14:23,940 --> 00:14:21,760
afterlife or how do they encounter

312
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:23,950
whatever that is afterlife and I

313
00:14:28,650 --> 00:14:26,650
approached it from this mediumistic kind

314
00:14:30,300 --> 00:14:28,660
of do but but very scientific and stuff

315
00:14:33,540 --> 00:14:30,310
like that I mean that to me seems to be

316
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:33,550
really your sweet spot in new thinking

317
00:14:39,810 --> 00:14:36,130
aloud I I would agree with you where

318
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:39,820
we're in an era in which science is

319
00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:41,890
beginning to offer many important

320
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:44,820
insights that were once considered

321
00:14:49,770 --> 00:14:48,370
exclusively the realm of religion if I

322
00:14:51,210 --> 00:14:49,780
can now want to switch back to talk

323
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:51,220
about parapsychology because it

324
00:14:55,140 --> 00:14:51,970
interests me

325
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:55,150
I think the deep spirituality is the

326
00:15:00,000 --> 00:14:56,850
most important and I think the

327
00:15:02,430 --> 00:15:00,010
consciousness and the parapsychology

328
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:02,440
stuff is a distant second but it's

329
00:15:05,070 --> 00:15:04,000
interesting when I asked you you kind of

330
00:15:06,630 --> 00:15:05,080
put it the other way around which is

331
00:15:09,690 --> 00:15:06,640
cool I mean that's we were coming from

332
00:15:12,330 --> 00:15:09,700
and I like that but I went and listened

333
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:12,340
to the interview we did 10 years ago and

334
00:15:16,590 --> 00:15:13,570
I guess there's a little bit of kind of

335
00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:16,600
i-told-you-so in here for me but I did I

336
00:15:23,370 --> 00:15:20,140
can't see the glass quite as half-full

337
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:23,380
when it comes to parapsychology as you

338
00:15:29,850 --> 00:15:27,130
do so I love the optimistic internal

339
00:15:32,430 --> 00:15:29,860
optimist spin that you put on it but I

340
00:15:34,590 --> 00:15:32,440
see the status to the state of

341
00:15:36,570 --> 00:15:34,600
parapsychology and the progress of

342
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:36,580
stupor lack of progress of

343
00:15:42,810 --> 00:15:38,530
parapsychology in the last 10 years in

344
00:15:44,970 --> 00:15:42,820
kind of a different a different view so

345
00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:44,980
I was hoping we could kick that around

346
00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:46,800
what do you think is the state of

347
00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:49,510
parapsychology right now I I think you

348
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:53,310
have to take a real long-term view of it

349
00:15:57,870 --> 00:15:57,250
William James wrote well over a hundred

350
00:15:59,610 --> 00:15:57,880
years ago

351
00:16:02,850 --> 00:15:59,620
well when the field was known as

352
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:02,860
psychical research but at that point he

353
00:16:07,860 --> 00:16:05,680
said we cannot judge this field decade

354
00:16:10,740 --> 00:16:07,870
by decade the way we would judge other

355
00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:10,750
fields we have to look at it century by

356
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:13,630
century instead because we're dealing

357
00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:16,560
with something so very profound our

358
00:16:21,970 --> 00:16:19,420
fundamental understanding of space and

359
00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:21,980
time and consciousness so

360
00:16:27,130 --> 00:16:24,560
that's what makes me optimistic is

361
00:16:29,980 --> 00:16:27,140
because I can look out maybe two three

362
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:29,990
four hundred years from now and see

363
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:32,480
where things are going if I had to say

364
00:16:36,910 --> 00:16:34,250
well you know what's happened in the

365
00:16:39,250 --> 00:16:36,920
last decade or two in fact the last

366
00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:39,260
let's say five decades since I've been

367
00:16:45,370 --> 00:16:42,230
active in the field I was much more

368
00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:45,380
optimistic and excited back in the 70s

369
00:16:50,170 --> 00:16:48,560
than I am right and at that point I

370
00:16:52,930 --> 00:16:50,180
thought parapsychology would

371
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:52,940
revolutionize everything and it's

372
00:16:58,440 --> 00:16:54,710
interesting because my friend Jacques

373
00:17:01,150 --> 00:16:58,450
Vallee the great UFO researcher

374
00:17:03,550 --> 00:17:01,160
remembers those days and he was involved

375
00:17:05,380 --> 00:17:03,560
in the creation of the Internet and he

376
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:05,390
said yes I was involved in

377
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:08,000
parapsychology and in the Internet and

378
00:17:12,579 --> 00:17:09,730
they they both seem to have

379
00:17:15,850 --> 00:17:12,589
revolutionary promise but only the

380
00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:15,860
Internet has so far actualized that

381
00:17:24,250 --> 00:17:19,670
potential parapsychology has yet to do

382
00:17:28,090 --> 00:17:24,260
so but the data is there the research is

383
00:17:30,420 --> 00:17:28,100
actually very good there are significant

384
00:17:32,530 --> 00:17:30,430
practical applications that have been

385
00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:32,540
developed it's just that there's

386
00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:35,750
enormous social resistance and that's

387
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:38,450
going to take a long long time to wear

388
00:17:44,770 --> 00:17:42,320
away okay and maybe we'll explore that

389
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:44,780
in a minute and what are the the driving

390
00:17:50,230 --> 00:17:46,970
forces behind that resistance both

391
00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:50,240
socially and within academia and science

392
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:53,270
in general but just to be clear you know

393
00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:56,240
I pulled out some quotes just to kind of

394
00:18:00,760 --> 00:17:58,730
establish where we're at you go to you

395
00:18:02,980 --> 00:18:00,770
look up parapsychology first thing that

396
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:02,990
comes up is Wikipedia we all hate

397
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:05,690
Wikipedia but we have to acknowledge the

398
00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:09,440
place that it holds in our collective

399
00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:12,830
culture opinion-forming thing opening

400
00:18:19,630 --> 00:18:15,860
paragraph last sentence parapsychology

401
00:18:23,020 --> 00:18:19,640
it is identified as pseudoscience by the

402
00:18:24,460 --> 00:18:23,030
overwhelming majority of mainstream

403
00:18:27,550 --> 00:18:24,470
scientists well of course that's

404
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:27,560
but aside from that that's

405
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:30,170
there but then what I did and this to me

406
00:18:35,620 --> 00:18:33,250
is even worse is you go to the

407
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:35,630
parapsychology Association

408
00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:39,039
website and it says most

409
00:18:45,070 --> 00:18:41,840
parapsychologists today expect that

410
00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:45,080
further research will eventually explain

411
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:47,750
these anomalies that is everything we're

412
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:49,850
talking about ESP psychokinesis and

413
00:18:54,549 --> 00:18:51,890
survival of consciousness in a

414
00:18:58,350 --> 00:18:54,559
scientific what they're really saying is

415
00:19:01,150 --> 00:18:58,360
materialistic mind equals brain terms so

416
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:01,160
that's been the failing that I see them

417
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:02,570
and that's the disappointment that I

418
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:05,210
think you feel or talked about and I

419
00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:08,450
certainly feel is that that there's been

420
00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:10,760
this coup from within where even the

421
00:19:17,980 --> 00:19:15,289
parapsychology Association is you know

422
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:17,990
been kind of taken over from the inside

423
00:19:21,970 --> 00:19:20,000
and has kind of lost its way in my

424
00:19:23,710 --> 00:19:21,980
opinion saying that oh we're all

425
00:19:27,399 --> 00:19:23,720
convinced that all this is going to be

426
00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:27,409
explained as materialistic science as we

427
00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:30,049
know it that's just crazy that's just

428
00:19:35,190 --> 00:19:30,940
ridiculous

429
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:35,200
well there are I would say a minority of

430
00:19:39,940 --> 00:19:36,799
parapsychologists who consider

431
00:19:42,490 --> 00:19:39,950
themselves physicalists or materialists

432
00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:42,500
who hold that view but most of the

433
00:19:49,870 --> 00:19:46,480
people in parapsychology and and I think

434
00:19:51,940 --> 00:19:49,880
well I I'm sure I can speak for most of

435
00:19:53,710 --> 00:19:51,950
the people in parapsychology and say

436
00:19:56,020 --> 00:19:53,720
that when they say there will be a

437
00:19:58,770 --> 00:19:56,030
scientific explanation they don't

438
00:20:01,210 --> 00:19:58,780
necessarily mean a mechanistic

439
00:20:04,750 --> 00:20:01,220
materialistic explanation I think

440
00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:04,760
they're talking about a new kind of

441
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:08,750
science a science that will be based on

442
00:20:16,060 --> 00:20:10,970
a different sort of metaphysics whether

443
00:20:17,919 --> 00:20:16,070
that's idealism or pan psychism it's

444
00:20:20,980 --> 00:20:17,929
hard to say right now but there are some

445
00:20:24,450 --> 00:20:20,990
very exciting developments and in the

446
00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:24,460
philosophy of mind as as well that

447
00:20:29,169 --> 00:20:27,350
suggests to me that you know in coming

448
00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:29,179
generations we're going to have very

449
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:32,630
different views of what what

450
00:20:38,230 --> 00:20:35,210
mean when we use basic terms like time

451
00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:38,240
space matter and energy I had no doubt

452
00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:39,230
no argument there

453
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:41,960
I just think again look back to your

454
00:20:47,260 --> 00:20:44,570
show in the current version of your show

455
00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:47,270
and what you're doing where you're

456
00:20:54,430 --> 00:20:51,260
mining in the deep spirituality kind of

457
00:20:58,180 --> 00:20:54,440
vein just seems so much more relevant

458
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:58,190
deep rich than when we turn our focus to

459
00:21:04,660 --> 00:21:01,280
the very narrow minded why people

460
00:21:06,850 --> 00:21:04,670
believe weird things that parapsychology

461
00:21:10,330 --> 00:21:06,860
in a lot of cases has become or the very

462
00:21:12,460 --> 00:21:10,340
kind of very limited narrow you know how

463
00:21:15,310 --> 00:21:12,470
can we make this little sigh experiment

464
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:15,320
work to me we've reached the jumping-off

465
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:17,450
point where we have to jump in the way

466
00:21:21,010 --> 00:21:18,890
that you're doing saying okay what are

467
00:21:25,390 --> 00:21:21,020
the broader implications for this

468
00:21:26,740 --> 00:21:25,400
complete redo of our understanding of

469
00:21:28,660 --> 00:21:26,750
consciousness and that is that it's

470
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:28,670
somehow in some way fundamental I mean

471
00:21:33,220 --> 00:21:30,170
that's where everything seems to be

472
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:33,230
pointing and that's why it just I it to

473
00:21:37,180 --> 00:21:35,110
me it doesn't make any sense for the

474
00:21:38,830 --> 00:21:37,190
parapsychology Association to even say

475
00:21:41,020 --> 00:21:38,840
something like that and say no we can

476
00:21:42,550 --> 00:21:41,030
keep we can keep going down this path it

477
00:21:44,530 --> 00:21:42,560
will eventually work out no it's not

478
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:44,540
until you make that shift it just none

479
00:21:49,150 --> 00:21:46,970
of it makes any sense well there's

480
00:21:52,090 --> 00:21:49,160
nothing inherent in the scientific

481
00:21:56,770 --> 00:21:52,100
method that requires that it be wedded

482
00:22:00,450 --> 00:21:56,780
to materialistic philosophy that point

483
00:22:05,230 --> 00:22:00,460
that's kind of you know I yeah a

484
00:22:08,290 --> 00:22:05,240
historical fact right now but in many

485
00:22:10,660 --> 00:22:08,300
ways philosophers are pointing out that

486
00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:10,670
there's a conceptual error there and

487
00:22:17,410 --> 00:22:14,600
that has to do with confusing technology

488
00:22:21,580 --> 00:22:17,420
with science technology has been so

489
00:22:24,130 --> 00:22:21,590
successful in over the last two three

490
00:22:27,850 --> 00:22:24,140
hundred years that we become hypnotized

491
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:27,860
by it in a way and we imagine that the

492
00:22:32,770 --> 00:22:30,290
world around us is like a great big

493
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:32,780
clockwork of some sort and that

494
00:22:37,870 --> 00:22:34,490
everything follows a kind of

495
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:37,880
rationalistic materialistic logic but I

496
00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:41,210
think that occurs because we project the

497
00:22:45,810 --> 00:22:43,700
success that we've had with technology

498
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:45,820
onto all of nature and nature

499
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:48,510
herself does not necessarily obey

500
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:51,810
mechanistic principles all of the time I

501
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:53,890
always say this the shut up and

502
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:55,810
calculate thing you know that they they

503
00:23:00,510 --> 00:22:57,730
reached in quantum physics which is like

504
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:00,520
oh my god here at least all these

505
00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:03,280
discoveries seem to be completely

506
00:23:06,450 --> 00:23:05,110
contradicting our understanding of

507
00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:06,460
consciousness consciousness is

508
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:09,190
fundamental and then somebody comes in

509
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:11,770
and says ok but shut up and calculate

510
00:23:14,850 --> 00:23:13,210
let's figure out how we can take it

511
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:14,860
which we've done I mean quantum physics

512
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:18,130
is is the heart of the computer is

513
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:21,280
cellular information explosion that

514
00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:24,310
we've had but it doesn't remove the fact

515
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:26,830
that we just kind of bypassed the deeper

516
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:29,530
philosophical questions that quantum

517
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:31,360
physics was struggling with a hundred

518
00:23:34,530 --> 00:23:33,610
years ago so I think a lot of people

519
00:23:36,750 --> 00:23:34,540
exactly what you're saying about

520
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:36,760
technology they don't realize that you

521
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:38,410
know it's not an either/or thing I mean

522
00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:40,690
you can you can ignore the philosophical

523
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:42,550
questions and still go on with your life

524
00:23:46,530 --> 00:23:44,830
but the philosophical questions and the

525
00:23:48,780 --> 00:23:46,540
civil the philosophy of science

526
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:48,790
questions are still there even if you

527
00:23:53,130 --> 00:23:50,710
ignore them what do you think about that

528
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:53,140
well Alex I think it's useful to

529
00:23:59,010 --> 00:23:55,810
appreciate that humanity itself is

530
00:24:01,530 --> 00:23:59,020
really just in its infancy I mean we

531
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:01,540
think of ourselves as being so advanced

532
00:24:07,130 --> 00:24:03,730
because we have all of this technology

533
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:07,140
but really the the earliest human

534
00:24:12,210 --> 00:24:09,520
civilizations are only maybe ten

535
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:12,220
thousand years old and in the larger

536
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:14,170
scheme of things that's virtually

537
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:17,520
nothing I mean I can envision a day when

538
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:20,250
humans will look back and they'll have a

539
00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:23,530
history that will extend for perhaps a

540
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:26,230
million years like other species have

541
00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:31,120
and so we have a lot of evolution ahead

542
00:24:35,910 --> 00:24:33,880
of us as a culture interesting yeah

543
00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:35,920
that's an interesting point let me let

544
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:38,500
me ask one more question in that vein

545
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:42,370
I've for whatever reason kind of gone

546
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:46,330
out of my way to talk to some of those

547
00:24:50,220 --> 00:24:48,880
people on the I'm going to call it

548
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:50,230
radical fringe because I think it's

549
00:24:54,270 --> 00:24:52,000
radical fringe on the other side but

550
00:24:57,539 --> 00:24:54,280
like caroline watt

551
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:57,549
richard wiseman people that some people

552
00:25:03,270 --> 00:24:59,679
consider skeptics but are really the

553
00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:03,280
mainstream science types have you talked

554
00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:04,750
to those people and what do you think

555
00:25:10,169 --> 00:25:08,049
about engaging with those kind of people

556
00:25:14,340 --> 00:25:10,179
Carolyn watt just for people who don't

557
00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:14,350
know was the head of the parapsychology

558
00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:16,630
unit at University of Edinburgh which is

559
00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:19,470
probably the one of the most

560
00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:24,400
consistently funded and continuing

561
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:26,470
programs in parapsychology although

562
00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:29,289
they've completely you know completely

563
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:32,020
undermine that and turned it into both

564
00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:33,760
investigating sigh but also

565
00:25:37,860 --> 00:25:35,830
investigating pseudo sigh and they got

566
00:25:38,909 --> 00:25:37,870
to mix that in but I interviewed it

567
00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:38,919
because she wrote this paper

568
00:25:43,740 --> 00:25:41,230
there's nothing paranormal about

569
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:43,750
near-death experiences how neural

570
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:46,330
science can explain explain seeing

571
00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:48,490
bright lights meeting the dead or being

572
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:50,289
convinced you are one of them which is

573
00:25:55,770 --> 00:25:52,570
just a disaster the paper of a paper

574
00:25:58,680 --> 00:25:55,780
we totally deconstructed it it's there

575
00:26:00,750 --> 00:25:58,690
miss quotes the people she used totally

576
00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:00,760
inappropriate and then she wraps it up

577
00:26:04,830 --> 00:26:02,110
by saying when I really push her she

578
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:04,840
goes hey it was just intended to be a

579
00:26:12,510 --> 00:26:07,360
provocative piece I wasn't claiming it

580
00:26:14,399 --> 00:26:12,520
to be balanced I mean this to me is is

581
00:26:18,270 --> 00:26:14,409
what we're getting from the other side

582
00:26:21,299 --> 00:26:18,280
do you engage in that dialogue or do you

583
00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:21,309
choose to kind of take the high road and

584
00:26:26,730 --> 00:26:23,350
go the other way or what do you think

585
00:26:29,940 --> 00:26:26,740
about that well I you know I do engage

586
00:26:35,390 --> 00:26:29,950
in it but minimally so and there are a

587
00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:35,400
number of people in academia who are

588
00:26:40,289 --> 00:26:37,990
politically astute and they realize that

589
00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:40,299
they're going to have more opportunities

590
00:26:47,970 --> 00:26:44,440
for career promotion and for grants and

591
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:47,980
so on if they take that skeptical tactic

592
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:50,770
and I think it's a very short-term

593
00:26:56,570 --> 00:26:53,770
strategy I think it does more damage

594
00:27:00,270 --> 00:26:56,580
than good in the long run and I

595
00:27:03,539 --> 00:27:00,280
personally have never chosen to go that

596
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:03,549
route but I can name a handful of people

597
00:27:10,010 --> 00:27:06,610
love for whom that's

598
00:27:14,490 --> 00:27:10,020
a successful path to career advancement

599
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:14,500
so let's get back and talk about new

600
00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:16,330
thinking aloud I want to kind of pro

601
00:27:21,690 --> 00:27:18,809
chit from another angle because you do a

602
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:21,700
fantastic job in the show and one of the

603
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:24,610
reasons is because you do have this deep

604
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:27,130
and broad knowledge about so many things

605
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:29,440
I'm just amazed that you go from one

606
00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:30,880
guest to another and you're in a

607
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:32,590
completely different talk topic and

608
00:27:36,510 --> 00:27:34,450
you're talking to biblical scholar

609
00:27:38,010 --> 00:27:36,520
Richard smoly and you're kind of totally

610
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:38,020
holding your own and then you're talking

611
00:27:40,980 --> 00:27:39,250
to some guys as deep into quantum

612
00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:40,990
physics and you're right there in that

613
00:27:45,140 --> 00:27:43,630
conversation it's it's impressive but

614
00:27:47,610 --> 00:27:45,150
one thing I'm always left with is

615
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:47,620
wanting to know a little bit more about

616
00:27:55,260 --> 00:27:50,770
what you really think about some of

617
00:27:56,669 --> 00:27:55,270
these controversial topics so if I if

618
00:27:58,890 --> 00:27:56,679
you'll indulge me I'm going to kind of

619
00:28:03,180 --> 00:27:58,900
ask you you know one by one and we take

620
00:28:05,310 --> 00:28:03,190
an easy one like ESP where do you where

621
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:05,320
do you come down on that obviously you

622
00:28:08,610 --> 00:28:06,910
think there's a reality to it what are

623
00:28:12,299 --> 00:28:08,620
the limits to it what do you think are

624
00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:12,309
the the the key research questions that

625
00:28:17,340 --> 00:28:14,260
are unanswered at this point that might

626
00:28:20,159 --> 00:28:17,350
be answered in the next 10 years well

627
00:28:22,380 --> 00:28:20,169
the evidence for ESP is overwhelming and

628
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:22,390
it has been overwhelming for more than a

629
00:28:29,070 --> 00:28:26,890
century as far as I'm concerned the real

630
00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:29,080
exciting frontier for me is the

631
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:32,980
practical applications of ESP and areas

632
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:36,090
like medical diagnosis archeology

633
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:39,970
financial forecasting and military

634
00:28:45,380 --> 00:28:42,490
applications and criminology

635
00:28:48,030 --> 00:28:45,390
applications and more and more

636
00:28:52,409 --> 00:28:48,040
interesting data is accumulating in

637
00:28:54,659 --> 00:28:52,419
those areas all of the time so I'm

638
00:28:57,570 --> 00:28:54,669
pretty confident that the day will come

639
00:29:00,750 --> 00:28:57,580
I can't tell you whether it'll be in 50

640
00:29:03,630 --> 00:29:00,760
years or in 500 years but the day will

641
00:29:06,570 --> 00:29:03,640
come when these kinds of applications

642
00:29:10,110 --> 00:29:06,580
are going to revolutionize our society

643
00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:10,120
completely interesting anything else in

644
00:29:15,930 --> 00:29:13,679
the SCI area of precognition

645
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:15,940
psychokinesis which we're going to talk

646
00:29:20,140 --> 00:29:18,730
about when we talk about PK man but any

647
00:29:22,330 --> 00:29:20,150
of those other things we're used

648
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:22,340
see something popping on the horizon

649
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:26,570
well you know I do all of them all of

650
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:28,130
them but the when you say something

651
00:29:34,540 --> 00:29:31,370
popping it may take a thousand years or

652
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:34,550
five thousand years I don't know how

653
00:29:39,330 --> 00:29:37,370
strong the resistance is because we're

654
00:29:42,490 --> 00:29:39,340
looking at some of the most fundamental

655
00:29:45,430 --> 00:29:42,500
barriers that we have as biological

656
00:29:49,570 --> 00:29:45,440
creatures for self-protection and for

657
00:29:52,780 --> 00:29:49,580
maintaining our individual egoistic

658
00:29:54,570 --> 00:29:52,790
sense of identity and you know the

659
00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:54,580
phenomenon such as extrasensory

660
00:30:01,720 --> 00:29:58,250
perception and psychokinesis implies

661
00:30:06,220 --> 00:30:01,730
such a vastly different worldview that

662
00:30:08,790 --> 00:30:06,230
the forces of resistance those social

663
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:08,800
forces are very strong as you know and

664
00:30:20,050 --> 00:30:12,890
are likely to persist for a long long

665
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:20,060
time I I wish I could say you know if if

666
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:22,010
it were just the data if it were just

667
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:25,370
the science parapsychology would have

668
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:28,730
been a widely accepted long long long

669
00:30:35,310 --> 00:30:32,090
ago at this point in time I'm sure many

670
00:30:38,890 --> 00:30:35,320
of your listeners realize that since

671
00:30:42,010 --> 00:30:38,900
1969 the American Association for the

672
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:42,020
Advancement of science has had a formal

673
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:45,010
relationship with the parapsychology

674
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:46,970
Association and and that's in

675
00:30:51,610 --> 00:30:49,450
recognition of the fact that

676
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:51,620
parapsychologists are doing valid

677
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:55,130
science yeah just don't tell Wikipedia

678
00:31:00,660 --> 00:30:58,250
about that perhaps that's but okay so

679
00:31:03,940 --> 00:31:00,670
one area where there has been

680
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:03,950
significant progress and definitely in

681
00:31:09,340 --> 00:31:06,050
the last 20 years especially in the last

682
00:31:11,530 --> 00:31:09,350
10 years and you talk about this on your

683
00:31:12,730 --> 00:31:11,540
show as well but on survival of

684
00:31:15,330 --> 00:31:12,740
consciousness and after death

685
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:15,340
communication what do you make of the

686
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:18,050
considerable near-death experience

687
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:20,330
science that's kind of come forward and

688
00:31:24,790 --> 00:31:22,510
kind of done it and run on that whole

689
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:24,800
skeptical debate because they've really

690
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:27,410
reached the general public and the

691
00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:29,840
public consciousness in a way that I

692
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:31,640
don't think anyone really saw that

693
00:31:38,450 --> 00:31:33,710
coming either

694
00:31:40,130 --> 00:31:38,460
yeah the work in near-death experience

695
00:31:42,650 --> 00:31:40,140
is very important there's an

696
00:31:46,250 --> 00:31:42,660
international association for near-death

697
00:31:47,810 --> 00:31:46,260
studies but what do you think about that

698
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:47,820
what do you think about that that

699
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:50,730
research what line of research they're

700
00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:52,770
about a dozen different lines of

701
00:31:58,730 --> 00:31:55,049
research all pointing toward the

702
00:32:01,549 --> 00:31:58,740
existence of an afterlife of survival of

703
00:32:04,250 --> 00:32:01,559
consciousness after death there probably

704
00:32:06,590 --> 00:32:04,260
a dozen different lines of research

705
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:06,600
there sure sure but let's get down

706
00:32:11,570 --> 00:32:09,450
so near-death experience research versus

707
00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:11,580
the reincarnation research primarily

708
00:32:17,630 --> 00:32:15,510
done at UVA with Jim Tucker and formally

709
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:17,640
in Stevenson you know compare or

710
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:19,200
contrast I mean really this is what I'm

711
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:20,490
saying this is the kind of stuff I'd

712
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:22,080
like to hear you say rather than just

713
00:32:25,220 --> 00:32:23,850
kind of a party line now that you know

714
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:25,230
for the general public yeah there's all

715
00:32:28,130 --> 00:32:26,730
these different things I mean how do you

716
00:32:29,980 --> 00:32:28,140
see how do you compare those how do you

717
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:29,990
stack those up how do you look at those

718
00:32:37,010 --> 00:32:32,210
well

719
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:37,020
the database for both of them is roughly

720
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:39,330
equivalent that we've got thousands of

721
00:32:44,350 --> 00:32:42,210
case studies we have strong evidence I

722
00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:44,360
would say that something akin to

723
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:47,790
reincarnation actually occurs I think

724
00:32:54,409 --> 00:32:50,610
there's a lot of confusion about it and

725
00:32:57,830 --> 00:32:54,419
in the popular mind because of psychic

726
00:33:02,360 --> 00:32:57,840
readers and past life regression

727
00:33:03,860 --> 00:33:02,370
therapists people often confuse you know

728
00:33:07,130 --> 00:33:03,870
their wishful thinking and their

729
00:33:09,650 --> 00:33:07,140
fantasies with actual reincarnation but

730
00:33:12,020 --> 00:33:09,660
the the data is very strong and then you

731
00:33:15,740 --> 00:33:12,030
have to ask yourself well if we

732
00:33:19,340 --> 00:33:15,750
reincarnate and if we also survive death

733
00:33:23,150 --> 00:33:19,350
those those are two windows into what an

734
00:33:26,810 --> 00:33:23,160
afterlife might look like I I think that

735
00:33:29,419 --> 00:33:26,820
we can form a composite picture of the

736
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:29,429
afterlife by looking at all these lines

737
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:33,480
of evidence as a whole and that's why I

738
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:36,090
like to talk about them all I think

739
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:38,250
they're all they all have their

740
00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:39,850
weaknesses

741
00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:45,040
and yet if you look at the overwhelming

742
00:33:51,930 --> 00:33:47,920
body of evidence they're all incredibly

743
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:51,940
strong and while some skeptics like to

744
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:55,770
dismiss it all as some sort of cognitive

745
00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:00,640
errors or wishful thinking the anyone

746
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:02,710
who takes a close look at the data will

747
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:05,290
realize that the people who are doing

748
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:07,690
research in this area are light years

749
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:10,330
ahead of their critics what do you think

750
00:34:17,550 --> 00:34:15,490
of a birthmark thing that Jim Tucker and

751
00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:17,560
I think Jim Tucker's really may be at

752
00:34:23,420 --> 00:34:19,270
the tail end of Ian Stevenson's career

753
00:34:26,370 --> 00:34:23,430
where the traumatic death event is

754
00:34:28,740 --> 00:34:26,380
correlated statistically correlated with

755
00:34:30,150 --> 00:34:28,750
a strange birthmark did you ever get

756
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:30,160
into that what it was you find that

757
00:34:34,410 --> 00:34:32,410
evidence compelling well and Ian

758
00:34:36,510 --> 00:34:34,420
Stevenson wrote a whole book about it

759
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:36,520
called the biological basis of

760
00:34:42,510 --> 00:34:38,650
reincarnation it's fascinating

761
00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:42,520
where if if let's say a person dies a

762
00:34:49,350 --> 00:34:45,550
violent death most of the reincarnation

763
00:34:52,590 --> 00:34:49,360
cases involve a violent death in the

764
00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:52,600
previous life somehow that's related to

765
00:34:58,370 --> 00:34:55,630
people having retained the memories of

766
00:35:01,500 --> 00:34:58,380
the previous life but often there's a

767
00:35:04,620 --> 00:35:01,510
young child who has memories is born

768
00:35:06,990 --> 00:35:04,630
with a birthmark that corresponds to the

769
00:35:09,090 --> 00:35:07,000
death wound from the previous lifetime

770
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:09,100
right so they're off interviewing this

771
00:35:12,630 --> 00:35:10,450
kid in Sri Lanka who's never been

772
00:35:14,850 --> 00:35:12,640
outside of his village and he leads him

773
00:35:16,290 --> 00:35:14,860
to a village a hundred miles away where

774
00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:16,300
he says that's where I'm born and they

775
00:35:19,830 --> 00:35:17,740
interview all the people all the people

776
00:35:21,690 --> 00:35:19,840
go yeah that was this guy it's exactly

777
00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:21,700
as he's describing and then they go but

778
00:35:26,730 --> 00:35:24,430
he was hit by this you know he was

779
00:35:28,770 --> 00:35:26,740
stabbed and killed and blown the whole

780
00:35:31,710 --> 00:35:28,780
kit is a birthmark in the same spot

781
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:31,720
right I mean it's just crazy well it

782
00:35:37,350 --> 00:35:35,530
suggests a lot of things from a

783
00:35:41,210 --> 00:35:37,360
scientific point of view that there's

784
00:35:43,770 --> 00:35:41,220
some sort of an organizing matrix that

785
00:35:46,770 --> 00:35:43,780
carries this information from one

786
00:35:49,250 --> 00:35:46,780
lifetime to another this is a very

787
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:49,260
important data but where it really gets

788
00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:50,450
fascinating

789
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:53,150
in cases where it's not a death wound

790
00:35:59,470 --> 00:35:56,930
but in some cultures people will

791
00:36:02,589 --> 00:35:59,480
actually mark the body of the deceased

792
00:36:06,430 --> 00:36:02,599
person let's say with charcoal and then

793
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:06,440
a young child will be born with the

794
00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:08,930
memories of that deceased person and

795
00:36:14,190 --> 00:36:10,630
they will have a birthmark corresponding

796
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:14,200
to where the body of the previous

797
00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:17,570
individual had been marked fascinating

798
00:36:22,060 --> 00:36:19,310
while I didn't know that part of it

799
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:22,070
that's great that's really cool so you

800
00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:25,760
know these kinds of phenomenon it's easy

801
00:36:30,839 --> 00:36:28,310
for skeptics to dismiss it because

802
00:36:34,109 --> 00:36:30,849
they're so bizarre and they defy

803
00:36:37,690 --> 00:36:34,119
rationalistic explanations so I think

804
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:37,700
many people who are in the scientific

805
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:39,920
community would like to believe that we

806
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:43,010
live in a rational world that's the

807
00:36:50,260 --> 00:36:46,310
phrase that they use and if if things

808
00:36:52,780 --> 00:36:50,270
don't comport with their idea of how a

809
00:36:54,609 --> 00:36:52,790
rational world should operate when they

810
00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:54,619
simply dismiss it and say it's not

811
00:37:02,079 --> 00:36:58,400
worthy of my consideration they may be

812
00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:02,089
making a very big error because there's

813
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:04,940
no a priori reason why the universe

814
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:08,180
should operate according to our idea of

815
00:37:14,530 --> 00:37:11,210
what a rational our rational world

816
00:37:16,210 --> 00:37:14,540
should behave now awesome perfectly said

817
00:37:17,829 --> 00:37:16,220
you know and that kind of leads me into

818
00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:17,839
the next thing because one of the things

819
00:37:24,309 --> 00:37:20,950
I appreciate that you do is you don't

820
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:24,319
set the boundaries at release you don't

821
00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:25,970
set them in the normal place that people

822
00:37:30,010 --> 00:37:27,470
do because the next thing you go into

823
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:30,020
you're not afraid to explore the UFO

824
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:33,530
phenomena the alien contact phenomenon

825
00:37:40,780 --> 00:37:36,800
of demonic possession in the occult I

826
00:37:43,809 --> 00:37:40,790
mean I I just don't know how anyone can

827
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:43,819
exclude those or at least put them on

828
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:46,310
the table but you certainly don't so

829
00:37:53,020 --> 00:37:49,690
what is your what is your best

830
00:37:56,460 --> 00:37:53,030
understanding of what's going on when we

831
00:37:59,319 --> 00:37:56,470
talk about UFOs and alien contact I

832
00:38:01,809 --> 00:37:59,329
think a good starting point for a

833
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:01,819
discussion of these things would be

834
00:38:09,130 --> 00:38:05,690
yeah fwh Myers classic book published in

835
00:38:12,910 --> 00:38:09,140
1902 called human personality and its

836
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:12,920
survival after death and what Myers did

837
00:38:18,969 --> 00:38:15,650
is he collected hundreds and hundreds of

838
00:38:20,799 --> 00:38:18,979
case studies that had accumulated in the

839
00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:20,809
offices of the Society for psychical

840
00:38:27,670 --> 00:38:24,529
research in London which was founded in

841
00:38:30,219 --> 00:38:27,680
1882 so he had about 20 years worth of

842
00:38:33,339 --> 00:38:30,229
data there and and he put it all

843
00:38:35,859 --> 00:38:33,349
together in a spectrum and what he

844
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:35,869
showed is that you can go to the most

845
00:38:43,089 --> 00:38:39,410
extreme cases pointing to survival after

846
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:43,099
death and show that they are part of a

847
00:38:49,150 --> 00:38:45,890
spectrum that includes normal human

848
00:38:51,579 --> 00:38:49,160
consciousness that just as we have the

849
00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:51,589
electromagnetic spectrum everything from

850
00:38:58,599 --> 00:38:55,609
normal light and radio waves and cosmic

851
00:39:01,959 --> 00:38:58,609
rays all of the same spectrum we have a

852
00:39:03,930 --> 00:39:01,969
wide wide range of phenomenon associated

853
00:39:08,109 --> 00:39:03,940
with consciousness including

854
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:08,119
reincarnation UFOs demonic possession

855
00:39:12,729 --> 00:39:10,640
and our normal everyday waking

856
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:12,739
consciousness which is just as much a

857
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:16,130
mystery as everything else great point

858
00:39:19,509 --> 00:39:18,170
great point I always like with one of my

859
00:39:20,769 --> 00:39:19,519
pet peeves is the hard problem of

860
00:39:23,199 --> 00:39:20,779
consciousness and I was want to say

861
00:39:26,319 --> 00:39:23,209
what's the easy problem that's that's

862
00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:26,329
kind of it but on the UFO thing I want

863
00:39:29,789 --> 00:39:27,529
to drill into that a little bit more

864
00:39:33,189 --> 00:39:29,799
because as you know in the UFO community

865
00:39:35,199 --> 00:39:33,199
they've suddenly got religion about

866
00:39:38,259 --> 00:39:35,209
consciousness but the way they bring it

867
00:39:41,069 --> 00:39:38,269
forward is kind of not always fleshed

868
00:39:43,859 --> 00:39:41,079
out completely so let's nail that down

869
00:39:47,709 --> 00:39:43,869
so if someone comes to you and says I

870
00:39:51,420 --> 00:39:47,719
believe there's a nuts-and-bolts reality

871
00:39:53,620 --> 00:39:51,430
to what I witnessed in the sky

872
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:53,630
irrespective of whether there's this

873
00:39:56,620 --> 00:39:55,249
spectrum of consciousness and it's

874
00:39:59,109 --> 00:39:56,630
somehow connected with that and

875
00:40:01,390 --> 00:39:59,119
Strassman z-- DMT beings and all the

876
00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:01,400
rest leave all that aside somebody comes

877
00:40:05,319 --> 00:40:03,680
and says hey there was a nuts and bolts

878
00:40:08,529 --> 00:40:05,329
reality to that thing that was flying

879
00:40:12,759 --> 00:40:08,539
this guy how do you feel about that well

880
00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:12,769
I am inclined to think that there dozens

881
00:40:17,839 --> 00:40:14,700
of different phenomenon that all

882
00:40:20,770 --> 00:40:17,849
lumped together under the rubric of UFOs

883
00:40:24,740 --> 00:40:20,780
and I can't rule out the idea of

884
00:40:27,290 --> 00:40:24,750
nuts-and-bolts machines but there are

885
00:40:31,579 --> 00:40:27,300
some severe problems with with that

886
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:31,589
interpretation for example some of these

887
00:40:37,490 --> 00:40:34,890
crafts have been known to they're even

888
00:40:40,460 --> 00:40:37,500
tracked on radar sometimes traveling at

889
00:40:43,329 --> 00:40:40,470
thousands of miles an hour and then

890
00:40:47,180 --> 00:40:43,339
making a right angle turn instantly and

891
00:40:50,030 --> 00:40:47,190
the normal laws of material science

892
00:40:51,079 --> 00:40:50,040
would suggest that and then if it were a

893
00:40:53,930 --> 00:40:51,089
nuts-and-bolts

894
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:53,940
aircraft it would have fallen apart at

895
00:41:00,410 --> 00:40:56,400
that time it couldn't stand the stress

896
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:00,420
of that much physical a change in

897
00:41:08,740 --> 00:41:04,560
physical momentum so is very likely that

898
00:41:11,089 --> 00:41:08,750
what we're looking at is more a

899
00:41:13,970 --> 00:41:11,099
projection from another dimension the

900
00:41:17,329 --> 00:41:13,980
way you can take for example a spotlight

901
00:41:19,339 --> 00:41:17,339
and projected them to the sky so that if

902
00:41:21,410 --> 00:41:19,349
the beam will appear to move at

903
00:41:25,579 --> 00:41:21,420
thousands of miles an hour and make a

904
00:41:28,940 --> 00:41:25,589
right angle turn that can be done so it

905
00:41:32,569 --> 00:41:28,950
suggests that these things that are

906
00:41:34,910 --> 00:41:32,579
never quite what they seem to be but

907
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:34,920
then we have to also mix in there what

908
00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:37,290
you said I mean we also have the radar

909
00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:42,569
which is approaching a physical missed

910
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:45,089
it we also have eyewitness accounts

911
00:41:48,260 --> 00:41:46,410
which don't but when there multiple

912
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:48,270
eyewitness counts progressed we have

913
00:41:52,309 --> 00:41:50,490
trace elements the lot of people have

914
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:52,319
explored and we don't know quite what to

915
00:41:56,329 --> 00:41:54,810
make those we have people that have said

916
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:56,339
they've come in contact with the

917
00:42:01,400 --> 00:41:59,280
physical that's so I know you're not

918
00:42:03,559 --> 00:42:01,410
dismissing any of that and you're really

919
00:42:06,109 --> 00:42:03,569
painting I think very fairly and

920
00:42:07,550 --> 00:42:06,119
appropriately kind of this broad kind of

921
00:42:10,339 --> 00:42:07,560
thing and I just want people to get a

922
00:42:12,970 --> 00:42:10,349
sense for how you're dealing with all

923
00:42:15,230 --> 00:42:12,980
the different data that's out there and

924
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:15,240
maybe you've done that already but if

925
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:17,130
there's anything you want to add you

926
00:42:21,470 --> 00:42:19,710
know please do well Alex I you know with

927
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:21,480
regard to the way that I personally

928
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:25,290
process all of this data it's probably

929
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:27,930
fair to say that my mind works like an

930
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:28,490
insight

931
00:42:34,780 --> 00:42:32,450
pedia in fact my first book the roots of

932
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:34,790
consciousness was called an encyclopedia

933
00:42:40,990 --> 00:42:38,930
of consciousness studies and so I'm

934
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:41,000
willing to kind of take it all in and

935
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:44,690
try and organize it and categorize it

936
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:47,810
maybe the way a librarian would work

937
00:42:52,330 --> 00:42:49,970
with the Dewey Decimal System that each

938
00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:52,340
and every perspective should have its

939
00:42:59,230 --> 00:42:56,510
own little niche I don't think that

940
00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:59,240
we're at a point in history now where we

941
00:43:05,109 --> 00:43:01,760
are yet ready to have an overarching

942
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:05,119
theory that can explain everything we're

943
00:43:11,380 --> 00:43:07,250
still in the in the data collection

944
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:11,390
phase great well it's awesome so one

945
00:43:17,109 --> 00:43:13,010
other thing I brought up I want to swing

946
00:43:18,940 --> 00:43:17,119
back to is demonic possession that must

947
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:18,950
throws a lot of people for a complete

948
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:21,890
loop the way you approach it in the

949
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:24,050
spirit that you've shared already in the

950
00:43:29,410 --> 00:43:26,170
show and people get this when they watch

951
00:43:32,470 --> 00:43:29,420
new thinking aloud is hey that's just

952
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:32,480
another phenomenon that has to be looked

953
00:43:38,190 --> 00:43:34,850
at and examined but you know what

954
00:43:42,099 --> 00:43:38,200
articular your thoughts on demonic

955
00:43:45,010 --> 00:43:42,109
possession benevolent spirits the spirit

956
00:43:47,620 --> 00:43:45,020
world the the hierarchy of consciousness

957
00:43:49,690 --> 00:43:47,630
whatever you know what that topology is

958
00:43:50,109 --> 00:43:49,700
as best we you understand it at this

959
00:43:52,830 --> 00:43:50,119
point

960
00:43:55,780 --> 00:43:52,840
any thoughts well you know the very term

961
00:43:59,050 --> 00:43:55,790
demonic the way you're using it or has

962
00:44:04,030 --> 00:43:59,060
sort of theological religious components

963
00:44:06,310 --> 00:44:04,040
and I should I think it's useful to

964
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:06,320
remind our viewers that in the history

965
00:44:13,390 --> 00:44:09,530
of religions on this planet what you see

966
00:44:16,359 --> 00:44:13,400
are many gods in overthrowing others

967
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:16,369
many Pantheon's the Greek Olympian gods

968
00:44:23,109 --> 00:44:19,130
overthrew the Greek Titans and so the

969
00:44:26,230 --> 00:44:23,119
Titans were labeled as demonic and often

970
00:44:28,570 --> 00:44:26,240
when a new religion comes about the the

971
00:44:30,910 --> 00:44:28,580
deities of the previous religion are

972
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:30,920
given that demonic label and that

973
00:44:38,109 --> 00:44:34,490
sometimes it's reversed when Zarathustra

974
00:44:40,359 --> 00:44:38,119
developed his philosophy in ancient

975
00:44:44,049 --> 00:44:40,369
Persia Heat

976
00:44:46,839 --> 00:44:44,059
took what had been viewed as as a demon

977
00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:46,849
or in Ashura and made it the head deity

978
00:44:54,009 --> 00:44:51,470
of light Ahura Mazda so you know one

979
00:44:57,009 --> 00:44:54,019
cultures demons maybe in other cultures

980
00:45:00,460 --> 00:44:57,019
deities and not necessarily in a bad

981
00:45:02,589 --> 00:45:00,470
sense either well said you know one of

982
00:45:04,660 --> 00:45:02,599
your recent guests Richard Smalley is

983
00:45:07,180 --> 00:45:04,670
somebody I quote all the time I mean

984
00:45:09,130 --> 00:45:07,190
he's and I haven't seen that interview

985
00:45:11,499 --> 00:45:09,140
yet but one of the things I hope you

986
00:45:14,140 --> 00:45:11,509
talked about is his research that when

987
00:45:16,359 --> 00:45:14,150
you look at the people of Judea and the

988
00:45:18,069 --> 00:45:16,369
Jew to the Jewish people and their

989
00:45:20,349 --> 00:45:18,079
predecessors were really doing with the

990
00:45:22,930 --> 00:45:20,359
Old Testament hey he goes all the way

991
00:45:25,359 --> 00:45:22,940
back and he says there was just Yahweh

992
00:45:26,650 --> 00:45:25,369
and Yahweh was good or bad and then the

993
00:45:28,690 --> 00:45:26,660
next thing you know they're telling the

994
00:45:30,700 --> 00:45:28,700
same story only they've broken off all

995
00:45:32,650 --> 00:45:30,710
the bad parts Yahweh and they'd have

996
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:32,660
attached him to this guy called Satan

997
00:45:37,839 --> 00:45:34,910
but it's the exact same story and they

998
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:37,849
probably borrowed it from some Zoroaster

999
00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:41,690
kind of dualistic kind of thing so more

1000
00:45:46,269 --> 00:45:43,609
evidence of exactly what you're talking

1001
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:46,279
about but now put in a in a context that

1002
00:45:51,370 --> 00:45:49,910
Wow is immediately relevant to all the

1003
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:51,380
majority of people on this planet in

1004
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:54,910
terms of the judeo-christian tradition

1005
00:46:00,430 --> 00:45:58,160
yeah we tend to see things from a human

1006
00:46:03,609 --> 00:46:00,440
perspective and certainly from a

1007
00:46:07,569 --> 00:46:03,619
cultural perspective but I think it's

1008
00:46:10,690 --> 00:46:07,579
also fair to say that if you're willing

1009
00:46:12,670 --> 00:46:10,700
to take seriously some of these

1010
00:46:16,229 --> 00:46:12,680
spiritual concepts that we've been

1011
00:46:19,900 --> 00:46:16,239
talking about like reincarnation then

1012
00:46:23,019 --> 00:46:19,910
issues such as birth and death take on a

1013
00:46:24,970 --> 00:46:23,029
whole new meaning and you know we often

1014
00:46:28,359 --> 00:46:24,980
think well what could be more evil than

1015
00:46:30,370 --> 00:46:28,369
death itself but from a larger

1016
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:30,380
perspective death is not evil at all

1017
00:46:35,229 --> 00:46:33,650
it's just part of the process let's talk

1018
00:46:39,220 --> 00:46:35,239
about evil though because one of the

1019
00:46:41,739 --> 00:46:39,230
fundamental questions for me is the

1020
00:46:46,299 --> 00:46:41,749
question of the guide question to put it

1021
00:46:49,450 --> 00:46:46,309
in very simple terms but I don't like to

1022
00:46:51,630 --> 00:46:49,460
bypass the fact that the picture that

1023
00:46:53,730 --> 00:46:51,640
seems to emerge from me is a

1024
00:46:57,180 --> 00:46:53,740
hierarchical order to

1025
00:46:59,460 --> 00:46:57,190
just misleading towards this goodness I

1026
00:47:01,500 --> 00:46:59,470
mean that does seem to come through and

1027
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:01,510
it comes through in the near-death

1028
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:03,790
experience research it comes in the

1029
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:06,850
mediumistic research a lot of the after

1030
00:47:11,970 --> 00:47:09,010
death communication research not that

1031
00:47:14,910 --> 00:47:11,980
there isn't darkness and the rest of

1032
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:14,920
that but that the the Ascension is

1033
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:19,450
towards good and I think that I'm coming

1034
00:47:24,270 --> 00:47:21,850
that from a completely non religious

1035
00:47:26,820 --> 00:47:24,280
standpoint that just seems to be my read

1036
00:47:28,890 --> 00:47:26,830
of the data what do you make of that

1037
00:47:32,250 --> 00:47:28,900
well it's deeply embedded in our culture

1038
00:47:36,450 --> 00:47:32,260
the very word God is related to the word

1039
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:36,460
good and and so by definition the closer

1040
00:47:43,830 --> 00:47:39,970
you are to God the closer you are to

1041
00:47:48,140 --> 00:47:43,840
goodness on one hand on the other hand

1042
00:47:51,540 --> 00:47:48,150
that creates a duality good and bad and

1043
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:51,550
many of this great spiritual traditions

1044
00:47:56,660 --> 00:47:53,770
such as Advaita would meaning non

1045
00:47:59,790 --> 00:47:56,670
duality say that all dualities are

1046
00:48:03,750 --> 00:47:59,800
artificial that good and bad right and

1047
00:48:06,630 --> 00:48:03,760
wrong up and down east and west inside

1048
00:48:10,530 --> 00:48:06,640
and outside are all part of a whole

1049
00:48:13,230 --> 00:48:10,540
they're all part of you know the oneness

1050
00:48:14,970 --> 00:48:13,240
of everything itself or if you're a

1051
00:48:18,570 --> 00:48:14,980
Buddhist you might say the nothingness

1052
00:48:21,330 --> 00:48:18,580
of everything itself that you can't have

1053
00:48:23,790 --> 00:48:21,340
goodness without it's not the opposite

1054
00:48:27,390 --> 00:48:23,800
they sort of create each other just as

1055
00:48:29,510 --> 00:48:27,400
the universe itself you might say how do

1056
00:48:32,130 --> 00:48:29,520
we get a universe out of nothing well

1057
00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:32,140
you might say mathematically you can

1058
00:48:40,620 --> 00:48:36,310
take zero and zero equals minus one plus

1059
00:48:42,660 --> 00:48:40,630
plus one I get that I just think and let

1060
00:48:45,770 --> 00:48:42,670
me push this a little bit further yeah I

1061
00:48:48,540 --> 00:48:45,780
also step back and I say okay

1062
00:48:51,770 --> 00:48:48,550
philosophically maybe true wisdom

1063
00:48:54,630 --> 00:48:51,780
traditions including the Great Eastern

1064
00:48:57,900 --> 00:48:54,640
Buddhist and Hindu traditions which you

1065
00:49:00,030 --> 00:48:57,910
know all that okay but the data that

1066
00:49:03,060 --> 00:49:00,040
seems to be coming through like we said

1067
00:49:05,900 --> 00:49:03,070
the two thousand plus cases of

1068
00:49:07,589 --> 00:49:05,910
near-death experience that have been

1069
00:49:11,130 --> 00:49:07,599
analyzed in a sign

1070
00:49:14,670 --> 00:49:11,140
way the mediumistic research seems to be

1071
00:49:18,170 --> 00:49:14,680
pointing pretty distinctly towards this

1072
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:18,180
hierarchy of consciousness towards this

1073
00:49:26,009 --> 00:49:22,690
development of the soul thing a moral

1074
00:49:28,529 --> 00:49:26,019
imperative towards doing good I mean

1075
00:49:31,769 --> 00:49:28,539
again I'm saying I'm not I'm trying to

1076
00:49:35,549 --> 00:49:31,779
remove my biases from it and just say

1077
00:49:39,450 --> 00:49:35,559
that's what the data seems to say well

1078
00:49:42,930 --> 00:49:39,460
they're both true that you know it's we

1079
00:49:46,589 --> 00:49:42,940
often assume a kind of Aristotelian

1080
00:49:49,620 --> 00:49:46,599
logic where if you can't have duality

1081
00:49:52,859 --> 00:49:49,630
and non-duality both being true but

1082
00:49:55,710 --> 00:49:52,869
that's just the logical premise that we

1083
00:49:58,109 --> 00:49:55,720
assume why don't see why at one level

1084
00:50:01,529 --> 00:49:58,119
what you're saying is perfectly true

1085
00:50:04,109 --> 00:50:01,539
that you know morality and and goodness

1086
00:50:07,710 --> 00:50:04,119
are an essential part of the spiritual

1087
00:50:10,859 --> 00:50:07,720
path and anybody who chooses to ignore

1088
00:50:14,130 --> 00:50:10,869
them does so with their peril and yet

1089
00:50:17,370 --> 00:50:14,140
there is a larger cosmic game going on

1090
00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:17,380
at the same time in which good and evil

1091
00:50:22,319 --> 00:50:19,359
are it's like watching a movie you know

1092
00:50:24,959 --> 00:50:22,329
what one actor plays the villain and one

1093
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:24,969
actor plays the hero but at the end of

1094
00:50:30,269 --> 00:50:26,890
the day it's just an interesting story

1095
00:50:31,349 --> 00:50:30,279
and and both actors are human beings

1096
00:50:34,739 --> 00:50:31,359
just like us

1097
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:34,749
so it doesn't have to be one or the

1098
00:50:40,170 --> 00:50:37,690
other it can be both and great I think

1099
00:50:42,479 --> 00:50:40,180
what in the time we have left I promised

1100
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:42,489
myself and I guess our listeners at the

1101
00:50:50,039 --> 00:50:44,650
beginning that I really want to talk

1102
00:50:51,989 --> 00:50:50,049
about PK man I mean how this isn't how

1103
00:50:54,150 --> 00:50:51,999
one this didn't get you the most

1104
00:50:58,229 --> 00:50:54,160
distinguished chair at some university

1105
00:51:01,499 --> 00:50:58,239
or a million-dollar book deal I don't

1106
00:51:05,459 --> 00:51:01,509
know or started some religious cult I

1107
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:05,469
don't know but obviously it didn't and

1108
00:51:12,569 --> 00:51:09,249
yet the story is just just too amazing

1109
00:51:15,180 --> 00:51:12,579
to to not repeat and retell so for

1110
00:51:19,009 --> 00:51:15,190
people who don't know the Ted Owens

1111
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:19,019
story and you're amazing many year

1112
00:51:22,980 --> 00:51:20,770
encounter with this

1113
00:51:25,350 --> 00:51:22,990
would you mind giving folks a synopsis

1114
00:51:29,430 --> 00:51:25,360
of what that whole thing was about well

1115
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:29,440
I met Ted Owens through hell put off in

1116
00:51:36,330 --> 00:51:32,170
Russell target SR I international back

1117
00:51:38,910 --> 00:51:36,340
in 1976 when they were doing their early

1118
00:51:40,859 --> 00:51:38,920
work and remote viewing and working with

1119
00:51:44,010 --> 00:51:40,869
Aurra Galler and getting funding from

1120
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:44,020
the CIA they were getting a lot of

1121
00:51:49,140 --> 00:51:47,200
publicity in Ted Owens learned about it

1122
00:51:51,330 --> 00:51:49,150
and he was sending them all of these

1123
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:51,340
letters saying things like you're

1124
00:51:56,460 --> 00:51:54,010
wasting your time with Uri Geller

1125
00:52:00,090 --> 00:51:56,470
because I'm the world's greatest psychic

1126
00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:00,100
and I to prove it he said I'm going to

1127
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:03,250
I'm going to do a demonstration for you

1128
00:52:09,690 --> 00:52:05,770
and there was a drought going on in

1129
00:52:12,450 --> 00:52:09,700
California in 1976 very serious drought

1130
00:52:14,460 --> 00:52:12,460
and he said I'm going to end this Strout

1131
00:52:17,130 --> 00:52:14,470
and you'll know in a few days because

1132
00:52:19,650 --> 00:52:17,140
they'll be rain and sleet and hail it

1133
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:19,660
will be UFO sightings which are part of

1134
00:52:24,210 --> 00:52:21,970
my signature of my demonstrations and

1135
00:52:27,150 --> 00:52:24,220
power blackouts at a local newspaper

1136
00:52:29,670 --> 00:52:27,160
we'll publish that the drought is over

1137
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:29,680
well all of that happened in like three

1138
00:52:36,109 --> 00:52:33,970
days time and so Russell Targ sent a

1139
00:52:38,070 --> 00:52:36,119
little note back to teto and saying

1140
00:52:41,460 --> 00:52:38,080
congratulations that was a really good

1141
00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:41,470
prediction and Ted Owens wrote back to

1142
00:52:47,730 --> 00:52:44,080
him and and said that was no prediction

1143
00:52:50,910 --> 00:52:47,740
I caused it and at that point put off in

1144
00:52:52,980 --> 00:52:50,920
Targ realized that this was more than

1145
00:52:55,470 --> 00:52:52,990
they could deal with it they were on it

1146
00:52:57,599 --> 00:52:55,480
as more than any of us can still deal

1147
00:53:00,859 --> 00:52:57,609
with but well that's part of the problem

1148
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:00,869
these phenomenon are so bizarre so

1149
00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:04,570
unbelievable so threatening to too many

1150
00:53:09,630 --> 00:53:06,550
of our preconceptions about how the

1151
00:53:12,510 --> 00:53:09,640
world should work that even very very

1152
00:53:15,390 --> 00:53:12,520
open-minded researchers like put-off and

1153
00:53:18,270 --> 00:53:15,400
Targ we're here to get it off of their

1154
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:18,280
plate so when I visited their laboratory

1155
00:53:23,010 --> 00:53:21,130
they nothing would have pleased them

1156
00:53:26,220 --> 00:53:23,020
more than Jeffrey please take these

1157
00:53:27,810 --> 00:53:26,230
files off of our hands and and we should

1158
00:53:30,060 --> 00:53:27,820
add to this because it's a cool part of

1159
00:53:31,980 --> 00:53:30,070
the story and it in it fills in the

1160
00:53:33,970 --> 00:53:31,990
picture of the kind of social pressures

1161
00:53:35,710 --> 00:53:33,980
that existed back then we know that

1162
00:53:39,010 --> 00:53:35,720
still exist today but one of the things

1163
00:53:40,599 --> 00:53:39,020
you point out is the Yeller thing was

1164
00:53:42,190 --> 00:53:40,609
kind of cutting both ways for them I

1165
00:53:44,140 --> 00:53:42,200
mean it was getting everyone excited but

1166
00:53:45,849 --> 00:53:44,150
is also drawing them a lot of heat and

1167
00:53:48,460 --> 00:53:45,859
they were like we don't make you know we

1168
00:53:50,700 --> 00:53:48,470
don't need more of that yeah you know if

1169
00:53:54,220 --> 00:53:50,710
you're going to get funding from the CIA

1170
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:54,230
to do that kind of research they want

1171
00:54:01,810 --> 00:53:57,050
you to be very quiet very respectable

1172
00:54:03,910 --> 00:54:01,820
not make a lot of waves and Erie Geller

1173
00:54:05,890 --> 00:54:03,920
was already too much of a loose cannon

1174
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:05,900
and Ted Owens would have been far too

1175
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:10,970
much for them so they they were very

1176
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:13,609
happy that a young eager graduate

1177
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:16,130
student such as myself at the time was

1178
00:54:24,310 --> 00:54:20,330
was willing to take that case off of

1179
00:54:27,550 --> 00:54:24,320
their hands and look into it and I met

1180
00:54:30,730 --> 00:54:27,560
Ted Owens a few months later in London

1181
00:54:32,890 --> 00:54:30,740
at a conference of the Paris Science

1182
00:54:35,740 --> 00:54:32,900
Foundation at the University of London

1183
00:54:38,410 --> 00:54:35,750
they were having a drought and a little

1184
00:54:41,770 --> 00:54:38,420
news article about what had happened in

1185
00:54:43,470 --> 00:54:41,780
California had been published in psychic

1186
00:54:47,700 --> 00:54:43,480
magazine which was an interesting

1187
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:47,710
publication back in that era and so

1188
00:54:53,140 --> 00:54:50,810
professor John Taylor a mathematician at

1189
00:54:58,210 --> 00:54:53,150
King's College at the University of

1190
00:55:00,640 --> 00:54:58,220
London invited Owens to come to England

1191
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:00,650
to end the drought that was going on

1192
00:55:08,050 --> 00:55:06,530
there and when I arrived in England once

1193
00:55:11,109 --> 00:55:08,060
again there was a terrible drought

1194
00:55:13,390 --> 00:55:11,119
people in some of the towns near London

1195
00:55:16,180 --> 00:55:13,400
could only get water when it was brought

1196
00:55:18,430 --> 00:55:16,190
in by truck and my friends in London

1197
00:55:20,530 --> 00:55:18,440
told me if you want your picture on the

1198
00:55:22,330 --> 00:55:20,540
front page of the London Times

1199
00:55:24,990 --> 00:55:22,340
all you have to do is walk down

1200
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:25,000
Piccadilly Circus carrying an umbrella

1201
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:27,530
people will take your picture and put it

1202
00:55:33,370 --> 00:55:29,690
in the newspaper it will seem so strange

1203
00:55:36,490 --> 00:55:33,380
but when Owens arrived once again rain

1204
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:36,500
and sleet and hail and power blackouts

1205
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:39,290
and the London subway system was shut

1206
00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:41,330
down and within a few days the

1207
00:55:47,350 --> 00:55:43,250
newspapers announced the drought was

1208
00:55:50,050 --> 00:55:47,360
over just like that but

1209
00:55:54,070 --> 00:55:50,060
at the Paris iins conference when Owens

1210
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:54,080
got up to speak people thought he was a

1211
00:55:59,890 --> 00:55:57,200
loud American braggart they wanted

1212
00:56:03,220 --> 00:55:59,900
nothing to do with Jeff Jeff paint a

1213
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:03,230
picture of what this guy looked like and

1214
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:05,690
a little bit of his personality because

1215
00:56:10,540 --> 00:56:07,930
he he didn't care about being

1216
00:56:11,890 --> 00:56:10,550
off-putting it sounds like I mean felt

1217
00:56:14,050 --> 00:56:11,900
like he kind of relished that in a way

1218
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:14,060
but I mean look at the whole persona I

1219
00:56:17,230 --> 00:56:15,290
mean what does that look like when it

1220
00:56:20,290 --> 00:56:17,240
comes up on the stage well he looked

1221
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:20,300
like Santa Claus in those days he was a

1222
00:56:25,660 --> 00:56:22,370
little heavy said he had a big white

1223
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:25,670
beard and white hair and bushy eyebrows

1224
00:56:32,260 --> 00:56:29,090
and he walked onto the stage carrying a

1225
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:32,270
toy wagon like one of those little red

1226
00:56:37,450 --> 00:56:35,090
wagons that kids have and it was piled

1227
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:37,460
high with papers and he said all of

1228
00:56:42,570 --> 00:56:40,610
these papers are documents from his many

1229
00:56:45,490 --> 00:56:42,580
demonstrations of his psychokinetic

1230
00:56:47,590 --> 00:56:45,500
abilities because he's the world's

1231
00:56:52,300 --> 00:56:47,600
greatest psychic and he can end droughts

1232
00:56:56,050 --> 00:56:52,310
and he can help end the Cold War and he

1233
00:56:59,410 --> 00:56:56,060
can summon UFOs and he's an ambassador

1234
00:57:02,320 --> 00:56:59,420
for the UFO he regarded himself as the

1235
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:02,330
ambassador to earth from what he called

1236
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:05,450
the space intelligences invisible beings

1237
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:09,050
on an invisible giant spaceship hovering

1238
00:57:15,970 --> 00:57:12,890
above the planet sometimes they took the

1239
00:57:17,770 --> 00:57:15,980
form he said of like giant insects like

1240
00:57:20,170 --> 00:57:17,780
preying mantises and they made

1241
00:57:22,780 --> 00:57:20,180
high-pitched squeaky noises and he

1242
00:57:26,110 --> 00:57:22,790
called them tweeter and Twitter because

1243
00:57:28,690 --> 00:57:26,120
of that and well he virtually got

1244
00:57:31,390 --> 00:57:28,700
laughed off the stage the organisers

1245
00:57:33,790 --> 00:57:31,400
came in the middle of his presentation

1246
00:57:36,460 --> 00:57:33,800
and said oh excuse us one of the

1247
00:57:38,350 --> 00:57:36,470
speakers who had just shown up and so

1248
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:38,360
you have to leave the stage right now

1249
00:57:43,870 --> 00:57:40,730
and he was very humiliated and

1250
00:57:46,210 --> 00:57:43,880
embarrassed by that and I began I

1251
00:57:49,210 --> 00:57:46,220
introduced myself to him at that point

1252
00:57:52,780 --> 00:57:49,220
and we struck up a friendship and later

1253
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:52,790
on I stood up in front of the whole

1254
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:54,770
conference and said I happen to know

1255
00:57:58,380 --> 00:57:57,200
firsthand about what he had done in

1256
00:58:01,140 --> 00:57:58,390
California and

1257
00:58:04,289 --> 00:58:01,150
the drought and you know even though he

1258
00:58:05,970 --> 00:58:04,299
may seem to you to be an unacceptable

1259
00:58:08,849 --> 00:58:05,980
kind of person I think we should take

1260
00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:08,859
him seriously and he was very grateful

1261
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:10,990
that I did that and we developed a

1262
00:58:16,980 --> 00:58:14,010
friendship and I continued to

1263
00:58:20,250 --> 00:58:16,990
investigate his claims for the next 10

1264
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:20,260
years amazing so tell us about some of

1265
00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:21,970
those claims the story that always

1266
00:58:28,769 --> 00:58:24,160
sticks in my mind and I think you have

1267
00:58:30,980 --> 00:58:28,779
an affidavit from an attorney that saw I

1268
00:58:32,190 --> 00:58:30,990
did that the lightning thing is just

1269
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:32,200
unbelievable

1270
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:33,970
so maybe tell that story in any other

1271
00:58:39,930 --> 00:58:37,450
stories in instances in the files and

1272
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:39,940
even today I have two full file drawers

1273
00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:43,650
with over a hundred and sixty various

1274
00:58:48,329 --> 00:58:46,720
demonstrations that that he did and one

1275
00:58:51,359 --> 00:58:48,339
of the things that he was known for

1276
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:51,369
doing is causing lightning to strike and

1277
00:58:57,029 --> 00:58:54,640
in one occasion he was working as a high

1278
00:58:59,970 --> 00:58:57,039
speed typist at a law office in

1279
00:59:02,579 --> 00:58:59,980
Philadelphia and once again bragging

1280
00:59:04,499 --> 00:59:02,589
about his abilities and he said I could

1281
00:59:07,319 --> 00:59:04,509
make lightning strike and one of the

1282
00:59:10,349 --> 00:59:07,329
lawyers was with him and he said okay

1283
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:10,359
they're in this skyscraper looking out

1284
00:59:15,509 --> 00:59:12,970
the window it was an overcast day but

1285
00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:15,519
there was no lightning in the sky at all

1286
00:59:20,279 --> 00:59:17,920
and the lawyer said you see that bridge

1287
00:59:23,339 --> 00:59:20,289
there the Camden bridge leading from

1288
00:59:25,620 --> 00:59:23,349
Philadelphia into Camden New Jersey said

1289
00:59:28,529 --> 00:59:25,630
make lightning strike that bridge and

1290
00:59:30,599 --> 00:59:28,539
Owen stood up and he pointed his finger

1291
00:59:33,299 --> 00:59:30,609
at the bridge and within about a minute

1292
00:59:36,059 --> 00:59:33,309
a bolt of lightning just came out of the

1293
00:59:37,829 --> 00:59:36,069
sky in the direction of the bridge it

1294
00:59:40,829 --> 00:59:37,839
didn't actually hit the bridge but it

1295
00:59:43,890 --> 00:59:40,839
was in the vicinity of the bridge and

1296
00:59:47,039 --> 00:59:43,900
that lawyer was named Sidney margulies

1297
00:59:48,930 --> 00:59:47,049
and I personally interviewed him and

1298
00:59:52,490 --> 00:59:48,940
then maybe about ten years later

1299
00:59:56,130 --> 00:59:52,500
interviewed and again and he remembered

1300
00:59:58,230 --> 00:59:56,140
those events very very vividly it's one

1301
01:00:00,329 --> 00:59:58,240
of the most impressive things that had

1302
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:00,339
ever occurred to him in his lifetime to

1303
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:02,890
see somebody point their finger like

1304
01:00:09,359 --> 01:00:05,170
that and a bolt of lightning come out of

1305
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:09,369
the sky looking back it's been a couple

1306
01:00:13,230 --> 01:00:11,920
of years what do you what do you

1307
01:00:14,549 --> 01:00:13,240
take when you mull that over in your

1308
01:00:17,490 --> 01:00:14,559
mind and you think of that whole

1309
01:00:19,109 --> 01:00:17,500
experience with Ted Owens what do you

1310
01:00:21,809 --> 01:00:19,119
make of it and as your opinion changed

1311
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:21,819
over the years well I

1312
01:00:27,289 --> 01:00:24,970
it's hard to make anything of it because

1313
01:00:30,900 --> 01:00:27,299
it's so bizarre and there's so many

1314
01:00:35,700 --> 01:00:30,910
components to it and Owens himself was

1315
01:00:38,609 --> 01:00:35,710
such a difficult person frankly when I

1316
01:00:41,210 --> 01:00:38,619
introduced him to a colleague dr. Lee

1317
01:00:44,849 --> 01:00:41,220
Poulos who was also a parapsychological

1318
01:00:47,970 --> 01:00:44,859
investigator and he described Owens as

1319
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:47,980
like a grizzly bear with a burr up its

1320
01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:51,490
ass right but the phenomenon had

1321
01:00:56,700 --> 01:00:53,710
different components you could say there

1322
01:01:00,289 --> 01:00:56,710
was a psychokinesis component there was

1323
01:01:03,470 --> 01:01:00,299
a UFO component there was a precognition

1324
01:01:06,059 --> 01:01:03,480
component there were poltergeist

1325
01:01:09,150 --> 01:01:06,069
activities that constantly seemed to

1326
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:09,160
surround him so all of these things were

1327
01:01:15,359 --> 01:01:11,890
going on and I guess one thing it's fair

1328
01:01:18,599 --> 01:01:15,369
to say it's it's it's he is exemplifies

1329
01:01:23,670 --> 01:01:18,609
why para psychologists often use the

1330
01:01:26,039 --> 01:01:23,680
term sy the Greek letter sy to sort of

1331
01:01:27,930 --> 01:01:26,049
lump all of these phenomenon together

1332
01:01:30,390 --> 01:01:27,940
because it's sometimes very hard to

1333
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:30,400
distinguish one from another and they

1334
01:01:34,309 --> 01:01:33,490
all seem to operate in conjunction with

1335
01:01:37,530 --> 01:01:34,319
each other

1336
01:01:40,530 --> 01:01:37,540
so dr. Mishlove we've talked a lot about

1337
01:01:42,510 --> 01:01:40,540
new thinking aloud but tell folks what's

1338
01:01:43,740 --> 01:01:42,520
coming up what your vision is for the

1339
01:01:46,020 --> 01:01:43,750
show where you think you're going to

1340
01:01:48,750 --> 01:01:46,030
take it any other projects you might be

1341
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:48,760
working on and the best place to find it

1342
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:50,410
obviously is on YouTube right or is

1343
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:52,930
there other ways to find it you can go

1344
01:01:58,819 --> 01:01:56,770
with new thinking aloud al l o w e d

1345
01:02:01,770 --> 01:01:58,829
it's all one word new thinking aloud

1346
01:02:03,690 --> 01:02:01,780
calm and that will take you right to the

1347
01:02:06,030 --> 01:02:03,700
YouTube channel

1348
01:02:08,700 --> 01:02:06,040
we've already posted about 200

1349
01:02:12,260 --> 01:02:08,710
interviews I would say at this point I'm

1350
01:02:15,799 --> 01:02:12,270
specializing in career retrospective

1351
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:15,809
interviews with leading researchers in

1352
01:02:21,090 --> 01:02:19,690
parapsychology yet I've turned 70 last

1353
01:02:23,970 --> 01:02:21,100
year and

1354
01:02:29,010 --> 01:02:23,980
many of the people I've known for the

1355
01:02:31,410 --> 01:02:29,020
last half a century are in their 70s now

1356
01:02:34,620 --> 01:02:31,420
they've done marvelous work I've

1357
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:34,630
completed 24 interviews with Stephen

1358
01:02:40,110 --> 01:02:37,330
Schwartz who was the great pioneer of

1359
01:02:44,250 --> 01:02:40,120
psychic archeology I've completed a

1360
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:44,260
dozen with a Charlie tart who coined the

1361
01:02:50,130 --> 01:02:45,970
term altered states of consciousness

1362
01:02:52,770 --> 01:02:50,140
I've completed about 10 now with Russell

1363
01:02:56,660 --> 01:02:52,780
Targ who helped found the remote viewing

1364
01:03:00,210 --> 01:02:56,670
research program at SR I international

1365
01:03:03,590 --> 01:03:00,220
I've done 14 with Stanley krypter who

1366
01:03:07,140 --> 01:03:03,600
was the pioneer in dream telepathy

1367
01:03:09,990 --> 01:03:07,150
research and has studied shamanistic

1368
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:10,000
traditions all over the world so I'm

1369
01:03:16,950 --> 01:03:12,970
hoping to get as many of these senior

1370
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:16,960
researchers as possible who are still

1371
01:03:23,550 --> 01:03:20,370
alive but are going to live forever and

1372
01:03:28,230 --> 01:03:23,560
get them to reflect back on their life's

1373
01:03:31,170 --> 01:03:28,240
work so that that's the the main thrust

1374
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:31,180
of what I'm doing at this point I it's

1375
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:34,330
absolutely fabulous and it's important

1376
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:35,770
important work and I think it will as

1377
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:37,930
your original kind of vision for it

1378
01:03:41,430 --> 01:03:38,770
Endora

1379
01:03:42,870 --> 01:03:41,440
my pleasure Alex thanks again to dr.

1380
01:03:44,490 --> 01:03:42,880
Jeffrey Mitchell all for joining me

1381
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:44,500
today on skeptic oh you know the

1382
01:03:48,690 --> 01:03:46,090
question ITF from this interview because

1383
01:03:50,550 --> 01:03:48,700
I just can't get past it is what do you

1384
01:03:53,070 --> 01:03:50,560
make the Ted Owens case what do you make

1385
01:03:55,050 --> 01:03:53,080
of the PK man and it seems to me that

1386
01:03:57,960 --> 01:03:55,060
that's something that either needs to be

1387
01:04:00,870 --> 01:03:57,970
just broadly debunked I mean either the

1388
01:04:05,250 --> 01:04:00,880
whole thing is just completely contrived

1389
01:04:07,350 --> 01:04:05,260
and made up or it completely shatters

1390
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:07,360
our understanding of reality I know

1391
01:04:10,290 --> 01:04:09,490
that's kind of a big statement but it's

1392
01:04:12,180 --> 01:04:10,300
true

1393
01:04:13,830 --> 01:04:12,190
which brings up another point I guess I

1394
01:04:16,140 --> 01:04:13,840
don't know if it's in a question form or

1395
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:16,150
not but it's like you know when you talk

1396
01:04:22,230 --> 01:04:19,570
to Jeff you kind of get this sense of a

1397
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:22,240
guy who's seen it all done it all to a

1398
01:04:27,180 --> 01:04:24,010
certain extent at least in the people

1399
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:27,190
he's talked to and he's very measured

1400
01:04:32,270 --> 01:04:29,770
and careful about what he says because

1401
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:32,280
he's like saying do

1402
01:04:37,310 --> 01:04:34,890
if you've been with Ted Owens and you've

1403
01:04:40,250 --> 01:04:37,320
seen him direct lightning bolts with his

1404
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:40,260
finger and summon UFOs well then all the

1405
01:04:46,670 --> 01:04:43,050
rest of this stuff has to fit in a world

1406
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:46,680
that's dramatically different than what

1407
01:04:51,710 --> 01:04:49,290
we imagine it to be on a day to day

1408
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:51,720
basis now that's my read of it he never

1409
01:04:57,859 --> 01:04:54,450
does anything like that but that's what

1410
01:04:59,300 --> 01:04:57,869
I'm taking out of this so how about you

1411
01:05:00,560 --> 01:04:59,310
what are your thoughts on that let me

1412
01:05:02,540 --> 01:05:00,570
know of course you can do that through

1413
01:05:03,980 --> 01:05:02,550
the skeptical forum or through the

1414
01:05:06,140 --> 01:05:03,990
sceptical website or send me an email

1415
01:05:06,500 --> 01:05:06,150
whatever you like the website is of

1416
01:05:10,310 --> 01:05:06,510
course

1417
01:05:13,070 --> 01:05:10,320
ske pti KO calm if you like this

1418
01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:13,080
interview I have 350 more of them you

1419
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:15,570
could go and listen to and I hope you do

1420
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:18,090
they're all there available for free and

1421
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:21,930
I have some more ones coming up good

1422
01:05:25,970 --> 01:05:24,690
ones I think it just keeps rolling on I

1423
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:25,980
keep saying I want to do it every other

1424
01:05:32,540 --> 01:05:29,130
week and I wind up doing it every week